VDJ Ron
The "mutual coupling" of bass bins by placing them side by side increases there effective power output, but are there any negative effects? It seems to work on my system!?
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 9:20 am
VDJ Ron
I've just read that putting them side, by side in a corner with solid walls may also help. More bass for nothing. Interesting !
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 10:43 am
wickedmix
Not sure I understand the question but if you feel there isn't enough bass when the room is full of people the only real solution is more and or bigger speakers. Bass tones are non directional mostly so placement doesn't matter as much as other speakers.
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 11:57 am
blckjck
Each time you add a bass bin of the same model it couples and adds roughly 3db. Each surface you place the bins also add roughly the same. The floor, 3db, a wall, 3db, etc. so, putting them in a corner gives you roughly 9db more gain.
Do not mix speakers of different types due to different responses and resonances. You could cause cancelation or frequency hot spots. This goes for tops as well as subs.
Having the subs apart, as done with a lot of mobile and band setups causes cancelation, comb filtering, and power alleys.
Also having the subs spaced away from a wall, ie more then a few inches, will start to induce cancelation.
Do not mix speakers of different types due to different responses and resonances. You could cause cancelation or frequency hot spots. This goes for tops as well as subs.
Having the subs apart, as done with a lot of mobile and band setups causes cancelation, comb filtering, and power alleys.
Also having the subs spaced away from a wall, ie more then a few inches, will start to induce cancelation.
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 12:44 pm
VDJ Ron
Nice reply!
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 1:17 pm
ClayDJ
Yes that is correct. You can couple two subs by placing them next to each other and facing them in toward the corner of two walls about two feet away. Make sure that they are in phase with each other or you will have phase cancellation. The waves hit the wall corners then expand outward similar to a folded horn. You get approximately 6 to 9 db increase for the same power input. If you can't put them in a corner, then couple them close to a flat wall and get about a 3db increase.
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 4:08 pm
VDJ Ron
Could we create a L- shaped artificial corner which would fold flat, and achieve the desired mutual coupling to always gain 9db? Would it be worth it? What about sound reflective materials?
Hence an optimal configuration, apart from the ceiling every time.
Could we put a top on it?
It would also remove the possibilty of phase cancellation due to the random placement of the bins.
Hence an optimal configuration, apart from the ceiling every time.
Could we put a top on it?
It would also remove the possibilty of phase cancellation due to the random placement of the bins.
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 5:23 pm
blckjck
The idea is to have something larger then the length of the sound wave to reflect off of. You could completely in case the output and make a larger horn but you get into speaker design and have to learn more about acoustic properties and resonance.
If your interested in making your own horns, check out Bill Fitzmaurice designs, or many others for that matter.
Sound on sound has good articles and links to sound system design and such. There is a large variety of designs for different applications. There is also a lot of misinformation that can be a challenge to sort through.
The best plan is to have an idea of what you want to, and will want to do with your setup. With that information you can make better choices on gear. I don't want to get to much farther off topic on you.
If your interested in making your own horns, check out Bill Fitzmaurice designs, or many others for that matter.
Sound on sound has good articles and links to sound system design and such. There is a large variety of designs for different applications. There is also a lot of misinformation that can be a challenge to sort through.
The best plan is to have an idea of what you want to, and will want to do with your setup. With that information you can make better choices on gear. I don't want to get to much farther off topic on you.
Posté Wed 06 May 15 @ 10:03 pm
Tear Em 'Up
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 7:03 am
klausmogensen
One of the primacy "cons" is of course the visuals. If you have nice symmetric setup, but then place big lumps of subs several feet away to get them close to a wall, it can look pretty bad and out of place
Another one is wall material. If you for instance play in office buildings with walls that are easy for contractors to setup and take down again, they are often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad
Another one is wall material. If you for instance play in office buildings with walls that are easy for contractors to setup and take down again, they are often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 7:11 am
VDJ Ron
This thread has really got me thinking about speaker placement. It's not as easy as left, and right.
In venues with little space I have put one normal speaker on a stand, and the other below it on the floor. These occasions have always worked very well, maybe this is because the speakers were coupling.
If you want to get the idea of the sound waves then think of a pond, and two stones being thrown in at the same time, then visualise the wave patterns. Depending on where the stones land in the pond, then sometimes the waves will crash directly into one another canceling themselves out, whilst at other times they coincide making the wave more powerful. Sound behaves in similar way.
It's obvious when you think about a pond, the same would apply to a dock corner by the sea, although the wave patterns are harder to visulise.
Hence by just placing two speakers side by side facing forward the waves couple, and you get sound enhancement, with almost zero wave cancellation.
PS: I'm still struggling to comprehend the corner in a physical way, the wave patterns are tricky. I think side by side is good enough, and it looks acceptable.
In venues with little space I have put one normal speaker on a stand, and the other below it on the floor. These occasions have always worked very well, maybe this is because the speakers were coupling.
If you want to get the idea of the sound waves then think of a pond, and two stones being thrown in at the same time, then visualise the wave patterns. Depending on where the stones land in the pond, then sometimes the waves will crash directly into one another canceling themselves out, whilst at other times they coincide making the wave more powerful. Sound behaves in similar way.
It's obvious when you think about a pond, the same would apply to a dock corner by the sea, although the wave patterns are harder to visulise.
Hence by just placing two speakers side by side facing forward the waves couple, and you get sound enhancement, with almost zero wave cancellation.
PS: I'm still struggling to comprehend the corner in a physical way, the wave patterns are tricky. I think side by side is good enough, and it looks acceptable.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 7:13 am
VDJ Ron
TearEmUp brilliant link.
If only I had become involved with you people earlier in my life!
I'm learning so much.
If only I had become involved with you people earlier in my life!
I'm learning so much.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 7:49 am
VDJ Ron
"often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad"
If the walls absorb the wave energy then you will get a reduction in the db.
If the walls absorb the wave energy then you will get a reduction in the db.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 7:58 am
VDJ Ron
sound BETTER at LOWER volumes; and shake grandpa's false teeth out when you have the volume up a little.
LoL!
LoL!
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 8:06 am
VDJ Ron
I'm doing what Marcel say's not to do, my two bins are equivalent to a single 18" bin, and I have more or less stuck them under my table?????????
Do I need to look for a wall?
I might disagree with him on this one, any wise comments?
Do I need to look for a wall?
I might disagree with him on this one, any wise comments?
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 8:23 am
VDJ Ron
Waves on water are 2d, like a circle. Sound waves are 3d, like a sphere. The corner is very tricky to visualise.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 8:52 am
blckjck
There is an earlier post for putting the sub two feet away. For corner loading this is incorrect. The edges of the box should be about 3 inches from the wall. With all of this information in mind, I do not corner load to gain more DB often. My rig is usually more than enough to cover the venues I am in. There are occasional times that when you do all the math and employ all the theories, it sounds like crap. Your ears should be the deciding factor on placement and quality.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 10:14 am
blckjck
klausmogensen wrote :
One of the primacy "cons" is of course the visuals. If you have nice symmetric setup, but then place big lumps of subs several feet away to get them close to a wall, it can look pretty bad and out of place
Another one is wall material. If you for instance play in office buildings with walls that are easy for contractors to setup and take down again, they are often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad
Another one is wall material. If you for instance play in office buildings with walls that are easy for contractors to setup and take down again, they are often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad
This is where having a loud enough rig is important. having two subwoofers spread apart with tops on sticks stuck into the subs looks visually better then a grouping of subs off in a corner. However, putting the subs together in the center achieves coupling without cancelation there. Putting them together under the table is even better, then they are out of sight.
For a lot of events I do my best to hide equipment as much as I try to hide cables. There are other events where the equipment and the DJ are the center of focus.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 10:19 am
VDJ Ron
You get my vote blckjck.
I agree with you, Marcel sounds just a little too theoretical, and good walls are hard to find, let alone corners.
I'll probably just continue putting two together, facing forward, I understand the idea behind that, and also it's an easy option.
If I have time to spare I might experiment in the future.
My system sounds good enough.
I agree with you, Marcel sounds just a little too theoretical, and good walls are hard to find, let alone corners.
I'll probably just continue putting two together, facing forward, I understand the idea behind that, and also it's an easy option.
If I have time to spare I might experiment in the future.
My system sounds good enough.
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 10:25 am
klausmogensen
bigron1 wrote :
"often not solid enough to "throw bass at". It can sound really bad"
If the walls absorb the wave energy then you will get a reduction in the db.
If the walls absorb the wave energy then you will get a reduction in the db.
IME you often get "taking walls" in that situation. Some notes are fine, some notes comes out at a lower volume. And others nodes makes the wall vibrates and the whole room becomes a bad play to be
Posté Thu 07 May 15 @ 11:21 am
