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Sujet Waveform - Page: 2

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LIMOLPRO InfinityMember since 2003
with MathEngine activated

 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 7:41 pm
Yh it's not like the old way...only beats and seen clearly..which is not ideal...
 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 7:52 pm
LIMOLPRO InfinityMember since 2003
I like waveform 2021
 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 7:58 pm
AdionPRO InfinityCTOMember since 2006
The rhythm waves were always supposed to show only beats, but the old algorithm was bleeding low frequencies a bit more compared to using the stems.
 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 8:04 pm
As pointed out by other users...different strokes for different folks...options should be available...if u like the new design,fine...but for others who have grown to like the 'flaw'...we should be able continue using the old way....
 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 8:38 pm
So is it a bug or not per my earlier post?
 

Posté Sat 27 Jun 20 @ 8:38 pm
wow...I didn't expect so many replies,...and even from the VirtualDJ CEO Stephane C.
Side Note:
I like seeing the CEO, taking a hands-on approach with the Forums, engaging with the users and standing behind the company/product.
This is commendable :-D
Thanks for replying.

Now, a bit of background about why I created this topic.

I got interested in mixing music, with a computer (big, heavy, desktop PC) in the late 1990s,
and got into a software called "Virtual Turntables" (by Carrot Innovations)
[ http://web.archive.org/web/20000226062923/http://www.carrotinnovations.com/vtt_screenshots.shtml ]

I was only a hobbyist and just fooling around at home, for friends, etc....and that was my first introduction to mixing music, with a computer.
It was different to using physical CDs, looking at stickers (with BPM information), ...and really remembering/knowing your music (cue-points in your mental memory!).
Then, maybe for a decade, I wasn't interested in mixing, until early 2010s, when I discovered VDJ 7.4.x

That was my first time, I began to mix music, "visually".
That waveform, cue-points, Camelot wheel / harmonic keys....it was a huge, paradigm shift for me....but it re-invigorated my love for mixing music.
I was still fooling around and just hobbyist, with music....and I liked all the new creativity, that VirtualDJ allowed me to explore.

The crux of my enjoyment with VirtualDJ was the waveform view, ie. the super-imposed waveforms of the default view;
I don't like scratch waveform, because it does not suit my purpose, nor the type of music.
VirtualDJ key-detection and beat-detection was good enough for me, back then, because I was tuned to the waveform display of VDJ.
For really percussive music or beat-less ambient music, more information in the waveform, is a plus.
( In percussive music, all those peaks in the waveform mattered )

So, for many years, I had real joy ... and I was still a hobbyist and just play music for fun.
I was fooling around with VDJ, until last year (2019), when I decided to buy a licence to use VDJ.
I had trouble using my new MIDI controller and because of my frustrations, I just gave up and left my "VDJ pursuits" on hold....

....until the big news (June 2020) about VDJ 2021 (with the new audio/stem separation innovation).
To me, this was huge news and I saw a short Youtube video, by DigitalDJTips...and I was stunned.

I decided to really try to get back to VDJ and test out VDJ 2021 and given the current pandemic/lockdown situation,
I had less distractions in life and with patience & guidance from djdad,
I really resolved my MIDI controller issues (which happened to be fixed in VDJ 202x build 5949).

I was impressed by this passionate & engaged team at VDJ :-)
So, I pushed on, with exploring the facets of VDJ 2020 and 2021,
and I can say that the 'stem isolation' feature is huge and awesome.
I don't perform commercially nor stream, but I can imagine this becoming mainstream in no time.

Anyway, after so many years away from VDJ, I was impressed with VDJ 2020/2021,
looking at improvement in sound quality, polished interface, lots of innovative features,...
...but I just kept returning to the issue that bugged me the most, i.e. the waveforms.

I had gotten accustomed to a clearer & a more brighter waveform, in VDJ 7.4.7
I know this is "old" software but all software, is iterative and never really the 'final product'.
I know it can always be improved and I don't judge VDJ 2020 or 2021, to be the absolute final product, made in stone.
We all add our features, improvements to it.

It's just that the default VDJ releases, over the years, started to degrade that waveform view that I used to love.

I didn't think that custom views implemented in each of the downloadable skins should have such dramatic impact to the waveform, but it looks like it does.
I tried skins from BLOCKS, Fruit & DennYo (I liked Fruit's a lot, except for some small quirks until I settled for DennYo because the waveform view-per-deck was the best, because of its enlarged size. Maybe, my eyes are suffering from age?!)

In any case, the waveforms were not as detailed or bright as before, and for percussive music, the waveform peaks mattered to me.
The view that I relied on, was for the waveforms to be super-imposed on each other, so that I can see where percussive elements of the music, overlap for the songs from Deck #1 and Deck #2.

The music does not need to have a significant beat, to have a rhythm and sometimes the basslines and the beats are not typical 4-by-4,
and then there are synth stabs, which gets harder to read in a noisy waveform...which only proves that I need to know my music _first_ before blindly thinking about waveforms!
( VDJ does quite a good job, at getting the BPM and putting the 'beat markers' too. No complaints there! )

So, I decided to open this topic up to the VDJ community, and I am glad that I am not the only one, who thinks this.
I did not want to cause divisions, but this is natural, when we all have own preferences because some will like blondes, others brunettes...but we all don't discriminate a good looking woman (or man)!
Likewise, we all have our own preference for waveforms, its colours but we don't discriminate good DJ software, and that's why we stick with VDJ.

It's just that, for a software that is so customizable, I found it strange that the waveform characteristics were diminishing over time, and there was no option to tune the sensitivity of the waveform to how we liked it (Yes, yes...I understand that, it depends on the skin-maker and their implementation).
I just found the newer waveforms was losing brightness and losing "beatless information" (e.g. less peaks, hiding vocals / humming / basslines, etc.)

I'm not saying this in a unappreciative way or criticizing anyone, but trying to say that there are probably enough users who want control over their waveforms,
and if given the option, we would customize the software to our liking and still be loyal to the company/product.
My issue was for the default skin in VDJ, because if I use a different skin, I can somewhat achieve what I like.

My thing is that I like to see super-imposed waveforms as I can see the overlap of the percussive elements between different songs.
You can then see, after how many bars that the beat will drop, when there's a break, etc.
( I don't get into "scratch view" waveforms )
That's just _my_ thing and I will still make VDJ work for me, in my way...because there are skins out there, which can work for me.

For VDJ 2021 waveforms, I can see the potential for different colours, for the different elements of a song and how these colours could be dimmable even.

PS: I did originally notice that enabling/disabling "MathEngine" in VDJ2021, had some unpredictable outcomes with the waveforms,
but I thought this was only me, and for this computer which I'm using (which does not have a good GPU).
 

Posté Sun 28 Jun 20 @ 9:07 am
Wow, that was a big read! A lot of similarites in your story to how I transitioned from vinyl and CD to digital.

Those old DJ software screen shots make me laugh! It seems some folk still want their software to look like that. There was a post recently asking for a skin. :-)

I feel the need to clarify something about a post I made earlier, when I said that the waveform view depended on the skin.

At that time I was unaware of the mathengine being the culprit. I assumed that the 'beats' view was created by some new code on the skin XML, which would not affect any skins from before the 2021 update. I thought it was an additional view rather than a replacement.
 

Posté Sun 28 Jun 20 @ 9:18 am
Cmon devs if u not gonna take us seriously..at least do it for iamanotheryou.

The fix will take less time than he took to write his passionate and pleading post!
 

Posté Sun 28 Jun 20 @ 1:05 pm
I thought Virtual DJ was all about options and being customizable. I don't mind having mathengine off to be able to have the right waveform but I'll be missing out features. Is that fair for loyal users like me? Put a donate button on the top of the forum for requests and I'll donate sth to make it worthwhile if that's the problem. Seems like only money talks today. Not opinions and preferences. How many more users have to come to this post ? At least 3 more people i talked to have mentioned me about the waveform. They too have mathengine turned off to get the waveform they want.
 

Posté Sun 28 Jun 20 @ 4:29 pm
I think they will fix this soon...
 

Posté Sun 28 Jun 20 @ 7:04 pm
groovindj wrote :
Those old DJ software screen shots make me laugh! It seems some folk still want their software to look like that.

Well, that old DJ software was ground-breaking at that time :-)
...and before that, it was Fast-Tracker and Impulse Tracker, for mixing/making music
(this is before Ableton and FruityLoops)

groovindj wrote :
I feel the need to clarify something about a post I made earlier, when I said that the waveform view depended on the skin.

yes, I did note and thanks for this clarification :-)

Dj Pari M wrote :
Cmon devs if u not gonna take us seriously..at least do it for iamanotheryou.
The fix will take less time than he took to write his passionate and pleading post!

I am passionate, but I was not pleading!

I was trying to present the context, of why I was questioning the waveforms over the years, in the default product.
The context was important to me, because I did not want to appear as ungrateful, whiney user on the internet.
For some time now, loud voices online are of criticism and snark.
Less and less have thoughtful discussions, or voices of reasonability.
I just want to show my appreciation but also see, what the VDJ team had to say about the waveform view itself.
It seemed like it stirred up some other 'quiet VDJ' users too.

I even noticed the title of this post was changed just to "waveform", from it used to be.

Anyway....


PressNPlayDJ wrote :
Put a donate button on the top of the forum for requests and I'll donate sth to make it worthwhile if that's the problem

PressNPlayDJ, you're more serious than me!
I would still like to see a choice, where users can have the option, of tweaking the sensitivity of the waveforms they want to see,
because we currently we can already choose the colours of the waveform, however the waveform information has diminished.

Dj Pari M wrote :
I think they will fix this soon...

Let's see.
Let's hope.

Music with a generic beat, have clear patterns in their waveforms.
In general, music with a typical 4x4 beat/bar , have recognisable waveforms,
so the minimalist waveform in VDJ is OK for mixing.

For percussive music or even beat-less ambient soundscapes, a minimalist waveform loses information.
Now, the skin-maker can tap into VDJ's 'under-the-hood' goodies, but the default skin should also have that option at least.

Anyway, I don't want to push anyone,...or demand anything. Yet, Ha...


 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 10:24 am
one bad habit that djs have gotten into over the years, have been fully depending on the waveforms and staring at the screen more than looking at the controller.
mixing is done by ears not eyes, because not all waveforms are perfectly sync.
computer should mostly be used for just choosing songs. focus on the hardware,your ears, and audience.
just my opinion, please dont bash me lol
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 1:09 pm
So we should eradicate the waveform altogether in about 5 years then??? That's backward thinking...we live in an evolutionary age my friend...use the technology to make things easier for us...and a well populated waveform is definitely helpful...I'm not bashing..one love
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 2:11 pm
djtroy1986 wrote :
one bad habit that djs have gotten into over the years, have been fully depending on the waveforms and staring at the screen more than looking at the controller.
mixing is done by ears not eyes, because not all waveforms are perfectly sync.
computer should mostly be used for just choosing songs. focus on the hardware,your ears, and audience.
just my opinion, please dont bash me lol


I can mix with ear. But the waveforms are a TOOL just like the SYNC button or when you can actually see the BPM of a song. They are TOOLS and are seen such as that.

So far this is my fix for this: if mathengine is disabled you get the right waveform. So i made a script with the help of Rune where you can toggle through the 4 different eqs and at the same time it will activate mathengine. That same script can also deactivate mathengine so my idea is. When you have mathengine disabled, you get the waveform you want. If you want to use stems enable mathengine with my script. The waveform won't change unless you load the next song. Use the stems to make your remix or whatever on the fly and when you're done with it, with the same button disable it (i used shift+button for example) its the only workaround right now and it works fine.


If you have a custom button on the screen or can use a button on your keyboard or controller this is the script you need:

var '$shift' ? setting 'mathengine' 'disabled' : eq_reset & setting 'mathEngine' 'Automatic' & setting 'eqMode' +1

It works perfect so far. That's my only workaround until they add the extra waveform option? I think its a bit harder then we think
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 3:31 pm
Dj Pari M wrote :
...we live in an evolutionary age my friend...use the technology to make things easier for us...and a well populated waveform is definitely helpful...I'm not bashing..one love

I'm not bashing either. But the new shapes waveform in 2021 is far and away clearer and more advanced than anything we've had before.


 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 3:55 pm
Dan (djtouchdan) wrote :
Dj Pari M wrote :
...we live in an evolutionary age my friend...use the technology to make things easier for us...and a well populated waveform is definitely helpful...I'm not bashing..one love

I'm not bashing either. But the new shapes waveform in 2021 is far and away clearer and more advanced than anything we've had before.



Dan we're not saying to change it. Its already there. Mathengine disabled and you can see it. Why not have it as an option? Isn't Virtual DJ all about being customizable? Is money the problem? What is the problem? Send me an email and I'll wire 200$ just to get this waveform while mathengine is on. So far mathengine off and its there. What is the issue? I don't understand. Stop telling us about the new wave form. I'm a paid user and a customer and we're politely asking for something we like BETTER and we have had for the past 10 years. Seriously.
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 4:23 pm
yes they are but the different views other than scratch are not working as desired with the new engine
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 4:23 pm
Firstly, I'm not a developer - so it's not up to me what is, or isn't in the software.

Secondly, I've not said at any point that the 'old' view shouldn't come back. Would I use it? No. But that's my personal preference (I didn't use it before 2021).

Adion wrote :
The rhythm waves were always supposed to show only beats, but the old algorithm was bleeding low frequencies a bit more compared to using the stems.
It has already been pointed out that the old rhythm waves were always supposed to show this way, but the old algorithm didn't allow for it, the new one does.

You guys are entitled to your opinions but in future I won't comment on the waveforms.
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 5:32 pm
Adion wrote :
bleeding low frequencies


That's not convincing me, as I can load a female acapella track (little or no low frequencies) and see a full waveform with the old 'non-beats' view.

If necessary I can post a pic of a track in Adobe Audition and VDJ for a side-by-side comparison.

The new "improved" beats waveform is just peaks, whereas the one it's replaced was the full thing.
 

Posté Wed 01 Jul 20 @ 5:55 pm
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