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Sujet New Multitrack File Format (Stems)

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ClayDJPRO InfinityMember since 2011
I hope VDJ 8 is ready for NI's new Multitrack file format...
http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2015/03/native-instruments-launches-multitrack-music-file-format/

Native Instruments has announced a new multi-track file format for DJs and producers, called "Stems". The new, open format allows a track to be released with four "parts" (or "stems") - for instance drums, bassline, harmony and lead - that DJs can then use for advanced mixing using isolated parts of each track.

This will mean instant instrumentals, acapellas, adding effects to only one part of a song and so on will all become possible, something facilitated by Traktor, which will have the ability to mix with Stem files built in as of this summer.

Juno, Beatport and Traxsource have all stated that they will be selling music in this format from June this year, and as the format will be open (all details on how to make Stem files and how to play them will be publicly available, and anyone can create Stems without paying licensing fees for creation, distribution, or use), it gives producers big and small the chance to release music this way. Any DAW in conjunction with the free Stem Creator Tool app ought to be able to create Stem files.

Stem files are "backwardly compatible" as they're based on the MP4 format, so you'll be able to treat them just like MP3s as far as editing metadata in programs like iTunes is concerned. Modern CDJs ought to play them fine too as will existing DJ software, although accessing the four stems will require software or players designed to do so.
What this means for DJing

This is something we've debated before (see this How Multitrack Files Could Revolutionise The Way DJs Mix from two years ago), and indeed it already exists (.mogg, or "multitrack ogg" is similar, and hundreds of songs are available in that format already). But this is the first time someone has announced something like this with music store support, DJ software and creator software all in place.

For NI, it is a logical addition to the company's "beyond two decks and a mixer" approach. It will be interesting to see how it fits in with the Remix Decks, which of course are also "four tracks in one". NI has attempted to kickstart an ecosystem of producers releasing tracks in Remix Set format for Traktor's Remix Decks which doesn't so far seem to have taken on its own steam, so maybe this is an attempt by the company to come at this idea from an additional angle.

See the link for more details.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 12:21 pm
Yes, it would be nice to have support (once the info is released) but IMO it's not going to take over the world. :-)

There's actually nothing stopping us using multitrack stem files (from studios, not the NI "new" format) in DJ s/w right now. They are usually in sync with each other, so it's just a case of dropping each file onto a deck or sample pad/slot and starting them at the correct time (all together). There wouldn't be a 4 track limit either!

 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 12:41 pm
This would be great if the major labels would jump in on this but I see this as only small time Indy labels jumping in. Honestly none of that stuff appeals to my audience.

It's so hard to get even accapelles now an days unless you have the hookup. Just look at album singles. Every one I bought back in the day had an instrumental and an accapelle, now you get none or just the instrumental.

Hopefully I'm wrong but I don't think so.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 3:30 pm
locodogPRO InfinityModeratorMember since 2013
No so true, if you dig round soundcloud you can find pop stems right now.
like groove says solo tracks would be better.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 3:42 pm
From a major label?? Most of the stuff I find is DIY crap.

I have made a few connects so I can get some from major labels .

But like I said I do hope I'm wrong as the labels release some stems.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 3:50 pm
locodogPRO InfinityModeratorMember since 2013
I've found plenty of pro stems, it kind of makes sense for the label & artists, yes there'll be plenty of CC remixes but anything made that is money worthy then there's licencing, that and the artist gets a bump on their mechanicals.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 5:00 pm
Please don't get me wrong.
I'm going to express my PERSONAL point of view, so whatever I say has nothing to do with how Atomix will proceed regarding Stems

To our point now:
Multitrack recording and multitrack production is not something new... It has been around for decades.
A lot attempts have been made to promote a multitrack format to the mass, but they all failed.
They failed because in order to promote something new you need A LOT of BIG companies to support and PROMOTE it, something that's not easy. On the contrary it's quite hard!

There has always been a war between various formats. You can see this war easily on DVD's area (DVD-R, DVD+R) on BluRay vs HD DVD e.t.c.
Even the CD-DA format has passed a long way to become a widely spread format.
The sad news is that our beloved CD-DA was NOT the "best" format for the job regarding user friendliness. Originally CD-DA was developed by Philips in the early 80's and Sony followed up a little time after. Both companies decided to join their forces in the mid 80's to promote it further.
It was not up until mid 90's that CD-DA started to spread the world...
In the meantime Sony developed the CD-DA format further to create it's own mini-Disk (MD) format that tried to promote on early 90's
MD format was superior to CD-DA for several reasons: Despite offering the same audio quality as CD-DA, it was writable AND rewritable, it could join & split tracks, re-arrange tracks order on the disk, and it provided some sort of "tagging" of the tracks (Similar to CD-Text)
So, despite the fact that MD was more user friendly than CD-DA it failed and it's officially a piece of history now (Sony ceased support for it on March of 2013)
The reasons it failed was the competition (Philips DCC format that also failed) and the fact that Record Companies didn't want a writable and re-writable medium to spread the world offering such a high quality of audio information.
Sony which was one of the leaders in Hi-Fi audio in the 90's and early 00's failed to promote and standardize it's own format because it couldn't find the right partners and because it couldn't make the right allies (record companies)

Same rule goes for Stems or any other similar format.
NI promotes Stems as the "next big thing" for Dj's, and the next big thing since sliced bread. It has to promote it as such if it wants to succeed.
However, the success of Stems is something that will be judged in time. NI has to collaborate with others (even with it's competitors) if they want to succeed. If they fail to do so, the format will fail as well. First of all they will have to convince a lot of popular DAW creator companies to include support for it. Then they will have to convince producers to use it and release tracks in it. Finally they will have to convince other DJ software companies to support the playback of it.
Also the format itself contains a few risks:
1) The fact that it targets a particular market (Dj market) means that the demand for such files will not be that big and several producers or record companies will wonder if it worth the trouble to compile such a file (create a 4 bus release of the track)
2) The fact that it's multi-track (4 track) means that the producers will have to decide if they want to give away the ability for the average "dj" (or even bedroom dj) to mess around with their work and create a ton of "bad" remixes
3) Finally the two facts above could end up affect the format's pricing policy which would be the greatest risk of all.
The only good move for now, is that the format is "open" but I don't know if it's open source or just "open"

PS1: If the CD-DA vs MD war seems irrelevant I could post another history lesson how MP3 won the war versus WMA despite the fact that WMA was better in audio quality terms and non commercially licensed as MP3 is
PS2: The fact that NI provides a tool to create "Stems" is just a work - around IMHO. They will need proper support of the DAWs if it's to make Stems a "standard" format

PS3: That's not about "Stems" but for multi-track recordings used by dj's:
It won't be an easy task to produce an interface (software or hardware) that will allow you to have full control over 4 buses per track.
That's equivalent to 8 decks mixing for those that work with 2 decks and to 16 decks mixing for those that work with 4 decks.
Having the ability to adjust EQ or apply different effects independently on 4 buses is cool on paper or on studio. In real-time action though, having 16 EQ strips could end up a really mess. That's something that's also going to affect the format's success. Seeing the tendency over the last years (everything is getting smaller because everything should fit in a back-pack) this whole "multi-track dj mixing" seems bound to fail...
Finally an interface to handle all these controls should be intuitive. Dj's are not used to "DAW's" logic, and multi-track recordings unfortunately are bound with that logic.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 5:58 pm
PhantomDeejay wrote :

1) The fact that it targets a particular market (Dj market) means that the demand for such files will not be that big and several producers or record companies will wonder if it worth the trouble to compile such a file (create a 4 bus release of the track)
2) The fact that it's multi-track (4 track) means that the producers will have to decide if they want to give away the ability for the average "dj" (or even bedroom dj) to mess around with their work and create a ton of "bad" remixes


This is exactly what I was saying, I just don't think the "Major" labels will jump onboard because theres not enough money in it for them.

Blaze explains it right here........

 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 7:32 pm
PhantomDeejay, you have written an excellent post, but most will not grasp it. They are all looking for the next big thing, as if it will make them a better DJ. As an old man with first hand knowledge of the format wars, I totally agree with you. I'm speaking from a DJs point of view. I remember buying a record, playing it, and people danced all night long. If it is a good song, you don't need to add to it. I am talking about a guy and a girl (or a guy and a guy, let's stay on point) dancing together, all night long. That has changed, dramatically. This will not have any impact on me, and how I DJ. I try to keep it simple, keep the dance floor filled. I play a song 3 min on average, and have enough different versions, to please any crowd. Yeah, I have the RMX 1000, and the Launchpad S, but I am not using these on every song. All of these new technologies, are attempts to make money, but will not get more people on the dance floor. Plus, they are looking at their facebook page to see if somebody likes them, and let's be honest, todays music sucks. I'm sorry, I should have said that todays computer generated sounds suck.
 

Posté Tue 07 Apr 15 @ 8:07 pm
I say bring back the Timeline feature, and add in the ability to record MIDI knob and fader movements on the fly, which can be saved and edited later.

Remember Serato & Ableton releasing The Bridge, with the Mixtape feature? Apparently Serato will be bringing The Bridge back at some future point.

Why don't Atomix take this opportunity to get ahead of the game and bring in a Mixtape like feature that doesn't require two s/w running simultaneously?

Far better use could be made of Stems with such a feature.
 

Posté Sun 26 Apr 15 @ 2:09 pm
Groovin sayd ;) "the ability to record MIDI knob and fader movements on the fly"...and cues/loops/samples/slider pad triggers...yessss!
 

Posté Sun 26 Apr 15 @ 7:48 pm
Oh you mean how Mix Emergency records and has been able to do for quit some time now........
 

Posté Sun 26 Apr 15 @ 8:03 pm
groovindj wrote :
I say bring back the Timeline feature, and add in the ability to record MIDI knob and fader movements on the fly, which can be saved and edited later.

While it sounds good on paper, have you ever tried to record/capture the MIDI output of your controller ?
Have you ever seen how many messages you get for a simple move ?
The hard part is not to capture MIDI. It's easy and the size of the captured file is also very small. But the number of messages make it impractical to edit later...
Moving the volume fader from 0 to 100% on latest controllers (with 14bit MIDI faders) will produce hundreds of messages if not thousands, depending on speed of movement (max is 16384 messages)
Now for a simple fade between 2 tracks (one fader up, one fader down) you'll end up having thousands of "small dots" that create 2 envelopes, one for each deck. In order to edit those envelopes you'll have to move, delete or add extra "dots" (messages) to get them how you want. Remember... there are thousands of them!
Add EQ and filter movements on the equation (another 8* thousands movements) and you get the picture... You end up with 10 * 16K = 160K (160.000) messages to review and edit just for one transition between 2 songs!

I'm not saying it's a "bad" idea... But the experience has shown it's a non practical feature to have, unless you want to produce the perfect mixtape. But then again there are other kind of software (DAW) that can help you to do that...
 

Posté Sun 26 Apr 15 @ 9:19 pm
I don't know near as much as you Phantom about this stuff but I do know thats what Im doing with Mix Emergency (moving faders up/down left/right, turning filters, adding effects, switching transitions and other stuff) and while it may take a while to render an hour long set Ive never had any freezing or lockups while recording, no pops, glitches or other weird things happen that Ive had happen with VDJ.

And yes I know ME is just a plugin and not a full fledged program like VDJ but they've been doing this for quite some now.
 

Posté Sun 26 Apr 15 @ 10:00 pm
Huey try to use "MixMeister" and you'll know what I mean.
It does exactly what's proposed here...
And if while you "record" you move any slider with the mouse (instead of modifying the envelopes with the mouse directly) you'll get the picture of the issue I mentioned.
 

Posté Mon 27 Apr 15 @ 12:38 am
Hmm I actually have that program and the controller to go with it, just gotta dig them outta the closet 👌
 

Posté Mon 27 Apr 15 @ 5:43 am
Mixmeister is very good. Use it a lot. Mmmm... could be in the wishes-treath: integrate mixmeister in automix ;-)
 

Posté Fri 07 Aug 15 @ 6:04 pm
I'm all for the production of Stems, I've read that anyone and everyone will be able to create them on the 14th (pretty sure anyway) when the creation tool comes out. I would spend the money on a few of them to try my hand but the cold hard reality of it for me is on a regular gig people probably won't dance to it. They just will not dance to something they don't know. I can get away with the odd remix here and there at weddings but it has to be something huge. I can get away with a little more later on in the night, when it's the young crowd who are drunk and just want dance music anyway. As much as I will try and convince myself I will use the stem to make on the fly remix's of little parts of the song, I won't. At home practicing and being that "Bedroom Mixtape DJ" sure I would mess around with it a lot more but unless I ever get into a club it will be on mixtapes for me, a handful of people I share them with, and put on mixcloud. Last time I checked I think my most popular mix had like 50 listens..... pretty sure 25-30 are from me lol. I would love to have this change and with everything being digital I see it getting a lot better traction then the other battles, but like a few of you said already only time will tell.
 

Posté Fri 07 Aug 15 @ 8:57 pm
Mixed In Key have released a new updated version of their Flow software which has 8 decks and supports using Stems with any controller.

Details at flowdj.com

At present it's Mac only with Windows to follow.

 

Posté Fri 11 Sep 15 @ 7:12 pm
PachNPRO InfinityMember since 2009
They should add it to their mashup software. That would be awesome.
 

Posté Fri 11 Sep 15 @ 8:01 pm


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