blckjck
bigron1 wrote :
@ phantomdj
The SPL is of course secondary to the RMS power rating in watts.
It really would not matter what the SPL of a 5w RMS speaker is since it would be of no use for our purposes.
The SPL is of course secondary to the RMS power rating in watts.
It really would not matter what the SPL of a 5w RMS speaker is since it would be of no use for our purposes.
I do not believe this is correct. The max SPL and its efficiency is more important.
If a speaker is rated at 93db@1w, it will be 113db@100w and 123db@1000
If it is rated 103db@1w, it will be 103db@100w and 133db@1000
It's efficiency greatly effects its output. You could have a 1500w speaker put out less volume then a 1000w speaker.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 9:51 pm
VDJ Ron
I understand that an efficient speaker can be more effective than a less efficient more powerful speaker.
I don't care how efficient a 5w RMS speaker is, it's not going to compare with a 1000w RMS speaker.
Hence without doubt the most important factor is power, then the secondary factor is efficiency.
Efficiency is meaningless if you don't have enough power at the start.
Efficiency cannot create power, all it does is avoid waste.
I don't care how efficient a 5w RMS speaker is, it's not going to compare with a 1000w RMS speaker.
Hence without doubt the most important factor is power, then the secondary factor is efficiency.
Efficiency is meaningless if you don't have enough power at the start.
Efficiency cannot create power, all it does is avoid waste.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:01 pm
blckjck
I am looking at the numbers. You can have a 500w RMS speaker beat a 1500w RMS speaker by 10db.
An eample would be an EAW compaired to a Gemini. There is a huge difference in the output per watt.
Active speakers are uslually rated with their Max SPL, while passive will have their Max, Sensitivity, or both.
An eample would be an EAW compaired to a Gemini. There is a huge difference in the output per watt.
Active speakers are uslually rated with their Max SPL, while passive will have their Max, Sensitivity, or both.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:10 pm
VDJ Ron
Quote"I am looking at the numbers. You can have a 500w RMS speaker beat a 1500w RMS speaker by 10db."
We know that, but what were doing is looking at the fundamentals.
If we have no power in the first place then efficiency will not help.
So what is the most important factor?
We know that, but what were doing is looking at the fundamentals.
If we have no power in the first place then efficiency will not help.
So what is the most important factor?
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:18 pm
blckjck
bigron1 wrote :
If we have no power in the first place then efficiency will not help.
Now where is the silliness.
With the different types of gear we are talking about, how many of them are going to have no power. You have been talking about high wattage systems and basing that on the coverage they can provide. What I am saying is, when looking for coverage, wattage isn't your best or only number to look at. You need to know what the max output of the speaker is to know what kind of coverage it will have.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:26 pm
groovindj
Oh dear.
Ron, read this http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/why_horns specifically the third paragraph.
Ron, read this http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/why_horns specifically the third paragraph.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:30 pm
VDJ Ron
So you don't want to know about the fundamentals.
Designers start with the fundamentals such as power, and then seek ways to improve efficiency.
They first ask questions like how much power is needed/available to perform a task, then later they look at ways to improve efficiency.
This applies to most forms of engineering.
Designers start with the fundamentals such as power, and then seek ways to improve efficiency.
They first ask questions like how much power is needed/available to perform a task, then later they look at ways to improve efficiency.
This applies to most forms of engineering.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:32 pm
blckjck
How about this..... with a sensitivity of 103db, 5 watts into a speaker will be 90db at 10 meters.
Think about the sound of heavy truck traffic going by a table at a reception. I would say that's pretty loud.
Think about the sound of heavy truck traffic going by a table at a reception. I would say that's pretty loud.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:37 pm
PhantomDeejay
What we want to say is that in a drag race what matters is who finish first (who runs faster)
It doesn't matter the horsepower. You can bring your 70's 700hp old Mustang, I can bring my new 500ps McLaren and still win.
Why? Because I handle less power more efficiently.
With speakers one other fact you should consider is that the power that gets lost on less efficient speakers ends up as heat in the speaker itself reducing its efficiency further more especially on long runs. So, no! Power capacity is NOT the most important factor. ANY sound engineer can confirm that :)
It doesn't matter the horsepower. You can bring your 70's 700hp old Mustang, I can bring my new 500ps McLaren and still win.
Why? Because I handle less power more efficiently.
With speakers one other fact you should consider is that the power that gets lost on less efficient speakers ends up as heat in the speaker itself reducing its efficiency further more especially on long runs. So, no! Power capacity is NOT the most important factor. ANY sound engineer can confirm that :)
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:40 pm
PhantomDeejay
Since we're talking about numbers: Every 3db increase in sensitivity of a speaker the half power it needs to sound the same.
So if you have a 1500 Watt RMS speaker with 92db sensitivity I can match it with a 325 Watt RMS speaker with 98db sensitivity or with a 157,5 Watt RMS speaker with 101db sensitivity!
YES, a 1500 Watt RMS speaker can sound the same with a 160 Watt RMS speaker!
Now let's calculate max db SPL assuming that both speakers can handle 1500 watts
1st speaker is 124 db SPL Max at 1 meter
2nd speaker is 133 db SPL Max at 1 meter
That's 9 db difference. Do you know what that means ?
So if you have a 1500 Watt RMS speaker with 92db sensitivity I can match it with a 325 Watt RMS speaker with 98db sensitivity or with a 157,5 Watt RMS speaker with 101db sensitivity!
YES, a 1500 Watt RMS speaker can sound the same with a 160 Watt RMS speaker!
Now let's calculate max db SPL assuming that both speakers can handle 1500 watts
1st speaker is 124 db SPL Max at 1 meter
2nd speaker is 133 db SPL Max at 1 meter
That's 9 db difference. Do you know what that means ?
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 10:48 pm
VDJ Ron
"Your all defying the basic laws of physics" said Scotty.
If you look at the example of a car, it needs petrol/diesel in the tank or it won't go, later you can worry about efficiency, which translates to mpg.
So the electrical current flowing through the speaker field coil is the first fundamental, it interacts with the impedance of the coil, and the input power rating is determined. Now we want to turn this power into sound waves. The transformation of one type of energy into another is always less than 100% efficient. At this point the engineer examines how he can make the system as efficient as possible. That then determines the output for a given input.
If you look at the example of a car, it needs petrol/diesel in the tank or it won't go, later you can worry about efficiency, which translates to mpg.
So the electrical current flowing through the speaker field coil is the first fundamental, it interacts with the impedance of the coil, and the input power rating is determined. Now we want to turn this power into sound waves. The transformation of one type of energy into another is always less than 100% efficient. At this point the engineer examines how he can make the system as efficient as possible. That then determines the output for a given input.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:01 pm
blckjck
No one is debating that you need power to make the speaker move.
The discussion, as I understood it, was what was more important for speakers. For speakers, why wouldn't you want less wattage to achieve the desired output?
Since the same wattage supplied to different sensitivity speakers creates different levels of output, how can wattage be what you are choosing your speakers by?
You would want to know the SPL output of that speaker to know if it will work for your application. Many times, that 5watt speaker can.
The discussion, as I understood it, was what was more important for speakers. For speakers, why wouldn't you want less wattage to achieve the desired output?
Since the same wattage supplied to different sensitivity speakers creates different levels of output, how can wattage be what you are choosing your speakers by?
You would want to know the SPL output of that speaker to know if it will work for your application. Many times, that 5watt speaker can.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:12 pm
VDJ Ron
The most important factor is the available electrical energy, the next is the efficiency of the electrical to sound energy transformation.
This is just basic physics.
This is just basic physics.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:33 pm
blckjck
I think this is another conversation I will have to bow out of.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:37 pm
blckjck
bigron1 wrote :
The most important factor is the available electrical energy, the next is the efficiency of the electrical to sound energy transformation.
This is just basic physics.
This is just basic physics.
I will leave with this.
We were not discussing the available energy. We were discussing which was more important, how much energy a device can handle or what it was able to do with the energy it was given. Given the same amount of energy, the peak wattage is less important then the sensitivity up until the point that the given energy exceeds the peak wattage. Which is also basic physics.
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:44 pm
PhantomDeejay
bigron1 wrote :
So the electrical current flowing through the speaker field coil is the first fundamental, it interacts with the impedance of the coil, and the input power rating is determined. Now we want to turn this power into sound waves. The transformation of one type of energy into another is always less than 100% efficient. At this point the engineer examines how he can make the system as efficient as possible. That then determines the power output for a given input.
So the electrical current flowing through the speaker field coil is the first fundamental, it interacts with the impedance of the coil, and the input power rating is determined. Now we want to turn this power into sound waves. The transformation of one type of energy into another is always less than 100% efficient. At this point the engineer examines how he can make the system as efficient as possible. That then determines the power output for a given input.
Nope.
Speakers don't have a power output, the same way lamps don't have a power output.
Input power handling depends on the impedance of the device and the voltage applied.
Since speakers have a set impedance, the voltage we apply on them is what determines how much current they will draw.
All 4Ohm speakers will draw the same current for the same volts. For instance all 4 Ohm speakers will draw 250mA of current at 1 Volt (in other words they will consume 0.25 Watts)
The more we increase the voltage, the more current they will draw. If we increase the Voltage at 10 Volts they will draw 2.5A of current which means the will consume 25 Watts of power.
If we increase the voltage furthermore at 100 Volts then the will need 25A of current which means they will consume 2500 Watts!
That numbers are the SAME for all 4 Ohm speakers!
What makes each speaker different is how much current it can stand without getting damaged. So a 500 Watts speaker can stand more current than a 250 Watts speaker without getting damaged.
Up to this point nothing can tell us how loud a speaker is. Sure you could assume that the more current a speaker can draw without getting damaged the more loud it will sound. However that's not the case and it never was.
I will change my cars example above to a new one.
We have 2 cars. They both use 98 octane unleaded gasoline. One of them consumes 11 gallons per 100 miles and the other one consumes consumes 9 gallons per 100 miles.
Which car is faster ?
Posté Thu 21 Jan 16 @ 11:56 pm
VDJ Ron
Quote "We have 2 cars. They both use 98 octane unleaded gasoline. One of them consumes 11 gallons per 100 miles and the other one consumes consumes 9 gallons per 100 miles.
Which car is faster ?"
Apples don't equal oranges.
Quote "Nope.
Speakers don't have a power output, the same way lamps don't have a power output."
There is a transformation of electrical to acoustic energy in a speaker. This transformation is with respect to time. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The rate of energy transformation with respect to time is power. Hence speakers have a power output, as do lamps.
Note: I don't know however if it can be properly measured.
Quote "Sure you could assume that the more current a speaker can draw without getting damaged the more loud it will sound. However that's not the case and it never was."
Similar types of speaker often have similar efficiency, so as a first guide the RMS value is good, to later be reinforced by the SPL. Then we have some idea of the loudness of a speaker.
Which car is faster ?"
Apples don't equal oranges.
Quote "Nope.
Speakers don't have a power output, the same way lamps don't have a power output."
There is a transformation of electrical to acoustic energy in a speaker. This transformation is with respect to time. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The rate of energy transformation with respect to time is power. Hence speakers have a power output, as do lamps.
Note: I don't know however if it can be properly measured.
Quote "Sure you could assume that the more current a speaker can draw without getting damaged the more loud it will sound. However that's not the case and it never was."
Similar types of speaker often have similar efficiency, so as a first guide the RMS value is good, to later be reinforced by the SPL. Then we have some idea of the loudness of a speaker.
Posté Fri 22 Jan 16 @ 12:09 am
PhantomDeejay
bigron1 wrote :
Quote "We have 2 cars. They both use 98 octane unleaded gasoline. One of them consumes 11 gallons per 100 miles and the other one consumes consumes 9 gallons per 100 miles.
Which car is faster ?"
Apples don't equal oranges.
Which car is faster ?"
Apples don't equal oranges.
So then why the power consumption of a speaker should determine it's loudness ?
bigron1 wrote :
Similar types of speaker often have similar efficiency, so as a first guide the RMS value is good, to later be reinforced by the SPL. Then we have some idea of the loudness of a speaker.
Still, like it or not what measures the loudness of a speaker is it's max SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
I sold a 3.2KW RMS Proel soundsystem (2 15'inch subs, 4 12' inch sats) to get at a 2.2KW RMS FBT Vertus system which effectively produces MORE loudness and consumes 1KW RMS less power.
We are trying to help you understand, but no-one can force you understand why you think the wrong way if you don't wish to understand.
Language is a barrier for me right now to explain it better, so I leave it here.
However: Sky is blue. Sea is blue. So, Sky is Sea! ;)
Posté Fri 22 Jan 16 @ 7:01 am
Tim Bennett
Why do you all bother to argue with someone who is not looking for an answer but to find someone to agree with his way of thinking? It is obvious, you cannot tell him anything. You've shown him literature from experts, professionals here have told him and he still insists that his thinking is correct and superior. Just leave him here to talk to himself, he enjoys it.
Posté Fri 22 Jan 16 @ 2:02 pm
VDJ Ron
Well I suggest you wise guys go and buy your speakers, but don't look at the RMS power, you don't need it do you?
The SPL will do you fine.
However this only tells you what 1W of power is doing.
Knowing what 1W of power is doing in isolation is useless.
Quote: "Still, like it or not what measures the loudness of a speaker is it's max SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
I sold a 3.2KW RMS Proel soundsystem (2 15'inch subs, 4 12' inch sats) to get at a 2.2KW RMS FBT Vertus system which effectively produces MORE loudness and consumes 1KW RMS less power."
You tell me what I already know, and understand. Blckjck has made this obvious point.
Since most competing speakers have efficiency of the same order, the RMS power is fine for me, then later I'll look at the SPL, and use it to refine my choice of speaker. Also I get as many independent reviews as possible, try Amazon, ZZsounds, Thomann, Youtube, and the whole internet. Consider all the factors before buying a system.
You represent an industry which has brought multiple standards of power to the consumer, they're peak, continuous, and RMS. This is guaranteed to confuse, and I believe it's done to deceive.
Who needs logic, and engineering fundamentals?
Hype seems fine.
The SPL will do you fine.
However this only tells you what 1W of power is doing.
Knowing what 1W of power is doing in isolation is useless.
Quote: "Still, like it or not what measures the loudness of a speaker is it's max SPL (Sound Pressure Level)
I sold a 3.2KW RMS Proel soundsystem (2 15'inch subs, 4 12' inch sats) to get at a 2.2KW RMS FBT Vertus system which effectively produces MORE loudness and consumes 1KW RMS less power."
You tell me what I already know, and understand. Blckjck has made this obvious point.
Since most competing speakers have efficiency of the same order, the RMS power is fine for me, then later I'll look at the SPL, and use it to refine my choice of speaker. Also I get as many independent reviews as possible, try Amazon, ZZsounds, Thomann, Youtube, and the whole internet. Consider all the factors before buying a system.
You represent an industry which has brought multiple standards of power to the consumer, they're peak, continuous, and RMS. This is guaranteed to confuse, and I believe it's done to deceive.
Who needs logic, and engineering fundamentals?
Hype seems fine.
Posté Fri 22 Jan 16 @ 3:03 pm
