DJ VinylTouch
I noticed that the documentation for the Rane Seventy Two Effects Section states the following:
So I know I don't have the story on the firmware limitation problem, but it seems like achieving feature parity with the serato implementation:
- Being able to route effects processing of each side to either deck + sampler
- Possible 6 software effects + 2 hardware effects usable on each deck or sampler
(Other than the sampler (not sure if extra deck rerouting of it would be required)) should be possible to do it with regular decks and the 6fx layout. What am I missing in understanding the problem?
I'm moreso curious as to what the issue is rather than requesting this be solved.
Quote :
You can activate up to four Effects at once per deck. Three of them are software (provided by VirtualDJ) and one of them is hardware (provided by Rane Seventy-Two firmware).
Quote :
Due to firmware limitations, for the effects to operate properly with VirtualDJ, left side of the screen must be assigned on deck 1 and right side on deck 2.
So I know I don't have the story on the firmware limitation problem, but it seems like achieving feature parity with the serato implementation:
- Being able to route effects processing of each side to either deck + sampler
- Possible 6 software effects + 2 hardware effects usable on each deck or sampler
(Other than the sampler (not sure if extra deck rerouting of it would be required)) should be possible to do it with regular decks and the 6fx layout. What am I missing in understanding the problem?
I'm moreso curious as to what the issue is rather than requesting this be solved.
Posté Thu 20 Apr 23 @ 4:04 pm
PhantomDeejay
The "issue" is that Serato and VirtualDj differ on how they handle effects.
With Serato you have two effect units (that can hold up to 3 slots each) that you assign on a deck.
With VirtualDj you have "unlimited" slots per deck.
On most cases this by itself is not an issue.
The problem with Seventy Two starts with the way it sends it's MIDI messages.
The "FX ASSIGN" buttons don't really send a useful message for VirtualDj to be able to use them (as with other units) to know what the user intends to do.
Instead they change the FX send/return audio channels on a hardware level.
This also would not be a deal breaker if the unit informed the software about the change. But it doesn't.
That's why it's not possible to get 8 effects per side with VirtualDj.
With Serato you have two effect units (that can hold up to 3 slots each) that you assign on a deck.
With VirtualDj you have "unlimited" slots per deck.
On most cases this by itself is not an issue.
The problem with Seventy Two starts with the way it sends it's MIDI messages.
The "FX ASSIGN" buttons don't really send a useful message for VirtualDj to be able to use them (as with other units) to know what the user intends to do.
Instead they change the FX send/return audio channels on a hardware level.
This also would not be a deal breaker if the unit informed the software about the change. But it doesn't.
That's why it's not possible to get 8 effects per side with VirtualDj.
Posté Thu 20 Apr 23 @ 7:15 pm
DJ VinylTouch
Quote :
The "FX ASSIGN" buttons don't really send a useful message for VirtualDj to be able to use them (as with other units) to know what the user intends to do.
Instead they change the FX send/return audio channels on a hardware level.
This also would not be a deal breaker if the unit informed the software about the change. But it doesn't.
The "FX ASSIGN" buttons don't really send a useful message for VirtualDj to be able to use them (as with other units) to know what the user intends to do.
Instead they change the FX send/return audio channels on a hardware level.
This also would not be a deal breaker if the unit informed the software about the change. But it doesn't.
I understand. So there is no possibility for any combination of these two to work then:
- Working with Rane to get a firmware upgrade on the FX Assign buttons to send useful MIDI messages
- Adding the missing FX send/return channels and monitoring all of them for activity (pardon me if I am grossly misunderstanding/misstating what is happening here)
I ask because it must be that the other software vendors (with traditional effects units) have a way of knowing/detecting/reacting to these changes, unless it's on a proprietary protocol level.
Posté Thu 20 Apr 23 @ 8:50 pm
PhantomDeejay
Indeed, you're missing completely how audio routing works for the effects, and how Serato deals with it.
The unit has 2 effect send/return channels.
Depending on the FX ASSIGN buttons status, when you use the paddle let's say on left side, it will route the sound to either (or both) of those channels.
Also as soon as it starts doing so, the sound "of the deck" will get cut off (because it will get replaced by the fx return sound)
In Serato, the effects you select prior using the paddles, get activated at the moment you use the paddle, and use the sound of the fx send channels.
So, it doesn't really matter (for the software) where the sound comes from and where it goes.
In VirtualDj though, the effects must get triggered in a deck. And for this very reason, the effect send/return channels must also be assigned on a deck.
It is possible to reassign an effect send/return channel to a different deck on the fly. We do that with Rane Four for instance, and you can use up to six effects at the same time (per deck)
The difference is that the assign buttons on Rane Four do send MIDI messages.
In other words:
The firmware of Seventy Two was tailored to the way effects work in Serato. Because of the "2 global/common for all decks effect units" approach, the activation of the effects can be agnostic to the software.
In VirtualDj effects activation cannot be agnostic.
As I said already above, usually the difference between how the two software deal/differ with their effect activation is not an issue.
We recently mapped Rane Four.
The way it works with effects on Serato is exactly the same as Seventy Two does. However Four sends FX ASSIGN data to software, and that's enough to have it working 100% "the same" way.
PS: It is easy to remap Seventy Two to use 6 software effects. The problem is that then (because of the agnostic nature of Seventy Two firmware) you can't use and/or activate different effects per deck.
So, you can't activate echo on deck 1 and reverb on deck 2. If you remap it to use 6 effects then both echo and reverb will get activated on both decks (because the software doesn't know where you assigned the fx1/fx2 "units")
The unit has 2 effect send/return channels.
Depending on the FX ASSIGN buttons status, when you use the paddle let's say on left side, it will route the sound to either (or both) of those channels.
Also as soon as it starts doing so, the sound "of the deck" will get cut off (because it will get replaced by the fx return sound)
In Serato, the effects you select prior using the paddles, get activated at the moment you use the paddle, and use the sound of the fx send channels.
So, it doesn't really matter (for the software) where the sound comes from and where it goes.
In VirtualDj though, the effects must get triggered in a deck. And for this very reason, the effect send/return channels must also be assigned on a deck.
It is possible to reassign an effect send/return channel to a different deck on the fly. We do that with Rane Four for instance, and you can use up to six effects at the same time (per deck)
The difference is that the assign buttons on Rane Four do send MIDI messages.
In other words:
The firmware of Seventy Two was tailored to the way effects work in Serato. Because of the "2 global/common for all decks effect units" approach, the activation of the effects can be agnostic to the software.
In VirtualDj effects activation cannot be agnostic.
As I said already above, usually the difference between how the two software deal/differ with their effect activation is not an issue.
We recently mapped Rane Four.
The way it works with effects on Serato is exactly the same as Seventy Two does. However Four sends FX ASSIGN data to software, and that's enough to have it working 100% "the same" way.
PS: It is easy to remap Seventy Two to use 6 software effects. The problem is that then (because of the agnostic nature of Seventy Two firmware) you can't use and/or activate different effects per deck.
So, you can't activate echo on deck 1 and reverb on deck 2. If you remap it to use 6 effects then both echo and reverb will get activated on both decks (because the software doesn't know where you assigned the fx1/fx2 "units")
Posté Fri 21 Apr 23 @ 12:50 am
DJ VinylTouch
I follow what you're saying for the routing. However, it seems like the initial option 1) would be the solution to the problem, as you said this:
Would it be possible to ask Rane to push a firmware update for the 72 to allow the FX Assign software buttons to send the required MIDI messages or no?
Quote :
The way it (Rane Four) works with effects on Serato is exactly the same as Seventy Two does. However Four sends FX ASSIGN data to software, and that's enough to have it working 100% "the same" way.
Would it be possible to ask Rane to push a firmware update for the 72 to allow the FX Assign software buttons to send the required MIDI messages or no?
Posté Fri 21 Apr 23 @ 4:08 am
PhantomDeejay
Let's put it this way:
We are waiting for about 18 months for Rane to publicly release a firmware for Twelve MKII that allows it's OLED screen to show BPM data from VirtualDJ.
Notice the key word here: publicly
It's not that the firmware doesn't exist and needs to be developed/tweaked. The firmware exists, the feature we 're talking about exists inside it, and it has been tested from us and obviously Rane. Unfortunately for reasons unknown to us, this firmware has yet to be made public.
So, even if we could somehow convince Rane to revisit the Seventy Two firmware, I would not hold my breath over it.
We are waiting for about 18 months for Rane to publicly release a firmware for Twelve MKII that allows it's OLED screen to show BPM data from VirtualDJ.
Notice the key word here: publicly
It's not that the firmware doesn't exist and needs to be developed/tweaked. The firmware exists, the feature we 're talking about exists inside it, and it has been tested from us and obviously Rane. Unfortunately for reasons unknown to us, this firmware has yet to be made public.
So, even if we could somehow convince Rane to revisit the Seventy Two firmware, I would not hold my breath over it.
Posté Fri 21 Apr 23 @ 7:50 am
DJ VinylTouch
I understand. I guess you wouldn't want to push back either since they are granting us a chance to sit at the table (although I would think the work between you guys and Rane for the Rane Twelve had some contract involved that can be used to support our cause by force or not).
I do feel the way VirtualDJ handles effects allows for much more possibilities/is more flexible, but if hardware manufactures don't want to play ball these kind of compromises will always result.
This might be a very gross thought ( or even infeasible due to the amount/type of required work wrt the current effects architecture) but, given the preference of these controllers to expect selectable routing to two effects module, is it worth looking into a compatibility mode for VirtualDJ to conform to this or not? Will it even be a solution?
I do feel the way VirtualDJ handles effects allows for much more possibilities/is more flexible, but if hardware manufactures don't want to play ball these kind of compromises will always result.
This might be a very gross thought ( or even infeasible due to the amount/type of required work wrt the current effects architecture) but, given the preference of these controllers to expect selectable routing to two effects module, is it worth looking into a compatibility mode for VirtualDJ to conform to this or not? Will it even be a solution?
Posté Fri 21 Apr 23 @ 8:04 pm
DJ VinylTouch
I realize the last question is really a stretch. Much thanks to you for the explanations - keep up the good work (both you and your team).
Posté Sun 23 Apr 23 @ 11:52 am
PhantomDeejay
As I said a few times on various threads, we try to be as much transparent as we can with our users, without finding ourselves trouble because of NDA's and stuff.
So, I think I gave you out as much information as I could! :)
So, I think I gave you out as much information as I could! :)
Posté Sun 23 Apr 23 @ 5:30 pm
the SOUND INSURGENT
I do use a 72mk2 but I think its my job as a DJ to go back and tell the hardware company that we want better implementations with VDJ.
The hardware companies are only going to ever do the bare minimum if we dont start standing up and asking for better implementations when it comes to VDJ.
The hardware companies are only going to ever do the bare minimum if we dont start standing up and asking for better implementations when it comes to VDJ.
Posté Wed 26 Apr 23 @ 3:12 pm