ProfLee
I posted this on one of the skin pages thinking perhaps the issue is skin specific but I'm seeing the same issue across skins. I hope reposting is acceptable given the release of 8.2.
VDJ 8.2 is running on a MacBook Pro with high specs and Retina display
In the video, I start with the default skin. If you look closely, you can see jitters even in the default skin. Then I open Controller Skin. Notice the settings window now persists when opening. That was an older issue that had gotten resolved in DennYo now is back with the introduction of 8.2.
Again, look at the wave forms and you can see how shaky they are. Last, I open the skin Fruit. With Fruit and the 4 deck view, the jitteriness is more pronounced. During this clip, the skinFPS is set at 30 but I've increased it to as high as 60 FPS and no noticeable difference. Again, this was a MacBook Pro with Retina Display but I experience a similar situation on a Toshiba.
Video: https://youtu.be/THZZF6gEiRA
VDJ 8.2 is running on a MacBook Pro with high specs and Retina display
In the video, I start with the default skin. If you look closely, you can see jitters even in the default skin. Then I open Controller Skin. Notice the settings window now persists when opening. That was an older issue that had gotten resolved in DennYo now is back with the introduction of 8.2.
Again, look at the wave forms and you can see how shaky they are. Last, I open the skin Fruit. With Fruit and the 4 deck view, the jitteriness is more pronounced. During this clip, the skinFPS is set at 30 but I've increased it to as high as 60 FPS and no noticeable difference. Again, this was a MacBook Pro with Retina Display but I experience a similar situation on a Toshiba.
Video: https://youtu.be/THZZF6gEiRA
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 3:11 am
djles.co.uk
On the Fruit skin you have a flashing triangle top left corner indicating no mains power and running on battery. Is that correct? or is it a skin fault that I had when it was running off the mains. Could that have a bearing?
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 3:30 am
ProfLee
DJSoulman wrote :
On the Fruit skin you have a flashing triangle top left corner indicating no mains power and running on battery. Is that correct? or is it a skin fault that I had when it was running off the mains. Could that have a bearing?
Nah, running on mains or battery yields the same issue. Interestingly, if any other operation is running, the jitteryiness subsides. Open a dialog window in VDJ8.2 while a track is playing and you can see the wave forms calm down.
The other day I tried recording another video of the wave forms using Quicktime and the jitters subsided to the point I didn't think viewers would even see the jitters. Others report opening and closing a few panes calms the jitters.
Roll back to Build 2587 and smooth as silk
It seems that the skinners are baffled too but I'm sure some one is working on it.
BTW- Same results on a high spec'd Toshiba laptop.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 4:17 am
the SOUND INSURGENT
Been happening on my MacBook as well, never raised any questions about because I don't really use the waves when I mix so it wasn't a big deal.
But yes it seems to be a nasty little bug to track down.
But yes it seems to be a nasty little bug to track down.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 5:21 am
Fruit
About the battery indicator, maybe something has changed since 8.2 that I sould be aware of ? Dunno... If someone from the team could explain, because nothing changed in 0.7 and it was working in 8.1 and it seems to be broken on 8.2.
Thus, the battery indicator's always been known to not work on mac OS.
Thus, the battery indicator's always been known to not work on mac OS.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 9:00 am
Adion
The only thing that changed is that the battery indicator should work on mac as well now.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 9:54 am
dcomo
I'm seeing the same type of jitter as well on both Mac and PC. (Very similar specs of machines that ProfLee has also suggested.) - i7/16GB RAM, etc.
As a side note, I generally run my SkinFPS at 16 as I like very low CPU usage and '16' is where I feel is the right place for me in regards to display performance and processor usage. In 8.0/8.1, '16' was perfect. In 8.2, there is a NOTICEABLE difference. (I tried taking a video of it, however my phone camera isn't fast enough to pick it up, but my eye is.)
I had to kick the SkinFPS to 20-22 to show the equivalent of 16 on the previous version.
There is absolutely a re-draw issue in 8.2 on both Mac and PC.
As a side note, I generally run my SkinFPS at 16 as I like very low CPU usage and '16' is where I feel is the right place for me in regards to display performance and processor usage. In 8.0/8.1, '16' was perfect. In 8.2, there is a NOTICEABLE difference. (I tried taking a video of it, however my phone camera isn't fast enough to pick it up, but my eye is.)
I had to kick the SkinFPS to 20-22 to show the equivalent of 16 on the previous version.
There is absolutely a re-draw issue in 8.2 on both Mac and PC.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 12:10 pm
Fruit
Adion wrote :
The only thing that changed is that the battery indicator should work on mac as well now.
Oh didn't know that. Several users reported to have seen the 'unplugged' icon whereas their AC power was plugged in. Could it be... kinda... inversed in some OS/cases ?
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 2:44 pm
PhantomDeejay
To be honest skin FPS should be a fraction of your screen FPS if you don't want to stress out your GPU.
So, if your screen FPS is 60Hz skin FPS should be 60, 30, or 15
Personally on systems with enough power (i5 processor with IntelHD 4600 graphics) or (i7 with nVidia GeForce 650) I use skin FPS=60 and I don't have issues with waveforms drawing.
skinFPS=60 means that the skin drawing is one to one with the screen refresh rate. Therefore no sampling is required by the CPU/GPU
On an older machine I used to use skinFPS=30 which means 2 screen refreshes per skin refresh.
So, if your screen FPS is 60Hz skin FPS should be 60, 30, or 15
Personally on systems with enough power (i5 processor with IntelHD 4600 graphics) or (i7 with nVidia GeForce 650) I use skin FPS=60 and I don't have issues with waveforms drawing.
skinFPS=60 means that the skin drawing is one to one with the screen refresh rate. Therefore no sampling is required by the CPU/GPU
On an older machine I used to use skinFPS=30 which means 2 screen refreshes per skin refresh.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 2:48 pm
Fruit
That said, there's decidedly a lack of perfomance in wave drawing, reported by several users.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 3:08 pm
dcomo
As a test on two IDENTICAL Mac's (same configuration, same software installed, etc. - I bought them both at the same time), I had one running 8.1 and one running 8.2 running side by side, playing the exact same song. (The settings.xml file is identical since I copied it from one machine to the other.)
8.1 is flawless
8.2 shows constant jitter
8.1 is flawless
8.2 shows constant jitter
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 3:22 pm
Fruit
ProfLee wrote :
Then I open Controller Skin. Notice the settings window now persists when opening. That was an older issue that had gotten resolved in DennYo now is back with the introduction of 8.2.
This looks like somehow related to the problem 1 I mentioned in that thread
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 4:13 pm
Don Moir
PhantomDeejay wrote :
skinFPS=60 means that the skin drawing is one to one with the screen refresh rate. Therefore no sampling is required by the CPU/GPU
skinFPS=60 means the skin will redraw it's entire self 60 times per second which requires more CPU/GPU and more heat. The screen always updates at it's refresh rate normally 60 times per second. I have no idea what you mean by no sampling is required by CPU/GPU if your skin draw rate is same as screen refresh rate. Drawing simply introduces more work for the computer. The more you draw the more work.
Most programs do not draw their entire interface x times per second. If they did your computer would be using more CPU/GPU then necessary. Most programs only draw areas of the interface when it becomes dirty or needs redrawing and not X times per second. VDJ could do this but the drawing is apparently blind to what the skin may be updating so just draws the whole skin.
I happen to be on a slow machine today since main machine is being repaired. Slow machines are great for watching performance problems so ran some test as have nothing else to do until machine gets back.
These test done on slow machine
o - with skinFPS=30 VDJ CPU at 37 percent
o - with skinFPS=30 and skin completely covered up by another app, VDJ CPU around 24 percent. VDJ is still doing the work of drawing the skin but guessing system has clipped out the display updates for the most part.
o - skin minimized - VDJ CPU at zero for VDJ. Assuming VDJ is not doing any work for updating the skin and no display
Although more complicated, would be nice if VDJ had intelligent skin redrawing only drawing things that have changed or have become dirty.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 6:07 pm
kradcliffe
Quick question Don,
for a normal user on an average PC, what should the skin FPS be set to. I seem to remember it is 30 by default, but would it be detrimental to lower that if it used less CPU?
Keith
for a normal user on an average PC, what should the skin FPS be set to. I seem to remember it is 30 by default, but would it be detrimental to lower that if it used less CPU?
Keith
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 6:15 pm
dcomo
kradcliffe wrote :
For a normal user on an average PC, what should the skin FPS be set to. I seem to remember it is 30 by default, but would it be detrimental to lower that if it used less CPU?
For a normal user on an average PC, what should the skin FPS be set to. I seem to remember it is 30 by default, but would it be detrimental to lower that if it used less CPU?
Generally 30 FPS is the default on a new install. I personally run VDJ from 16-20 FPS to further minimize overdrawing from the CPU/GPU and keeping the usage to a lower level. I'd prefer not to have super smooth movement of the on-screen jogs to have a cooler laptop.
In regards to the screen-redraw I can also chime in on this since I am also a developer and have built rendering systems in the past. I will add my +1 on this. Depending on the skin, there's generally only about 30% of the screen which changes from frame to frame. (Waves, jogs, etc.) The browser as an example, never needs to be updated unless someone actually makes a change.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 6:55 pm
Don Moir
On my faster machine I set the skinFPS to 30 but lower than that does not hurt except your skin display does not update as often so you can see delays in drawing etc... wave form display more choppy etc. 15 is adequate for most. On the slow machine I am using today, I set skinFPS to 1 reducing it's CPU usage and heat and I don't need to see the skin like you guys do. Biggest problem with setting the skinFPS so low like this, is the interface takes a long time to change when moving other interfaces in or out. Seems it should be smart enough to do this based on skinFPS and not simply every time it is drawn. Moving it one tick per draw per second in case of skinFPS=1. It should anticipate this and know damn well you don't want to wait 30 seconds for something to scroll in.
There can also be some contention when also drawing the video display with the skin also drawing. When there is video display the skin must sample the video display so it can display it on it's skin but they might always do this based on videoFPS but I don't know. There are a number of ways to do it and in itself should not be to much of an issue but it all depends on a number of factors. I like to set my videoFPS to 60. I favor that because I do a lot of things that scroll and smooth scrolling can require a lot of updates. It can be ultra smooth when videoForceFullscreen=1 is working correctly. Issues such as tearing can occur etc. and skin contention does not help with it. Many times you can minimize the VDJ skin and issues go away with the video display. For straight up video display videoFPS=30 is probably fine.
If VDJ had smart skin drawing then that would help a lot to minimize it's impact on other things. For example, when you first bring up VDJ maybe only the CPU meter is ticking off.. Well just draw that then. If the wave form display needs updating, cache the part that has already been drawn and just update the dirty part. It is how most apps update their user interface.
There can also be some contention when also drawing the video display with the skin also drawing. When there is video display the skin must sample the video display so it can display it on it's skin but they might always do this based on videoFPS but I don't know. There are a number of ways to do it and in itself should not be to much of an issue but it all depends on a number of factors. I like to set my videoFPS to 60. I favor that because I do a lot of things that scroll and smooth scrolling can require a lot of updates. It can be ultra smooth when videoForceFullscreen=1 is working correctly. Issues such as tearing can occur etc. and skin contention does not help with it. Many times you can minimize the VDJ skin and issues go away with the video display. For straight up video display videoFPS=30 is probably fine.
If VDJ had smart skin drawing then that would help a lot to minimize it's impact on other things. For example, when you first bring up VDJ maybe only the CPU meter is ticking off.. Well just draw that then. If the wave form display needs updating, cache the part that has already been drawn and just update the dirty part. It is how most apps update their user interface.
Posté Wed 06 Jul 16 @ 7:19 pm
PressNPlayDJ
i am seeing the same thing here @Lee.
Using i7 2.6 GHZ Alienware with 16 GB RAM and 3 GB Nvidia.
Virtual dj is loaded on an SSD internal drive.
Putting FPS at 60 makes the jitterness go away. At 30 it looks like its jettering... 8.1 doesn't have that issue. Maybe its because the devs changed the windows dependency and now we really need to put it at 60....will try it tonight at 60 and see how it goes.
Using i7 2.6 GHZ Alienware with 16 GB RAM and 3 GB Nvidia.
Virtual dj is loaded on an SSD internal drive.
Putting FPS at 60 makes the jitterness go away. At 30 it looks like its jettering... 8.1 doesn't have that issue. Maybe its because the devs changed the windows dependency and now we really need to put it at 60....will try it tonight at 60 and see how it goes.
Posté Thu 07 Jul 16 @ 5:14 pm
PressNPlayDJ
3 nights i used 8.2 with skin FPS at 60 with no issues BUT when i applied milkdrop effect the jitterness returned... Video FPS is set to 35
Posté Sat 09 Jul 16 @ 3:52 pm
bigcity1200
Thanks for posting this as I noticed this jittery wave forms along with a quick freeze on the platter animation. I was able to simply resolve by increasing the FPS from 30 to 60. Agree as this issue never occurred in previous versions of Virtual DJ.
Posté Sun 18 Jun 17 @ 9:16 pm
bigcity1200
Is 60 FPS the highest setting? It appears that there is no change when you using a number higher than 60.
Posté Sun 18 Jun 17 @ 9:22 pm
