Dazmax
A few things worth bearing in mind when using an additional mixer with your system.
1 If your mixer has Unbalanced outputs (As with the Behringer model mentioned). The use of long cable runs to Active/Powered Loudspeakers is best avoided. If you want to use a Mixer (Or Controller for that matter) without Balanced Outputs, use an Unbalanced to Balanced line convertor. This will greatly reduce the chances of Earth/Ground loops forming within your system and provide better noise rejection performance. A good quality UB to B convertor can cost almost as much as an inexpensive Mixer so the best solution is to avoid the problem and go for a Mixer which already provides Balanced Main Outputs.
2 As mentioned, avoid using the XLR inputs on Mixers like the Behringer model mentioned for anything other than Microphones. They are not designed to take the high level signals from a Line Source as the Gain control provided does not have the range of adjustment required to correctly match a Line Level signal. High distortion and levels of noise could well be the result. However there is nothing wrong with using the TRS balanced Jack inputs on these channels as these are configured with lower Gain to allow for Line Level signals.
3 Any additional equipment daisy chained into the signal path will add noise and distortion. However the pre amps in even modest priced equipment should not add objectionable levels of noise if configured correctly. Less expensive equipment “will” tend to have poorer noise performance. But the gap between less expensive and top notch equipment performance has narrowed a great deal. Of far greater concern is the noise/hiss added through poor setup and Gain Structure. Eg
Poor Gain Structure
Source output level set low, Mixer Input Channel Gain High (To obtain a usable signal), Mixer Channel fader low ( Below 0dB or Unity Gain setting). Mixer Master Fader High (Above 0dB or Unity Gain setting) Amplifier or Powered Loudspeaker level controls set above 0dB or Unity Gain setting.
The above settings will not make the best use of the mixers noise performance.
Good Gain Structure
Start with the Amplifier or Powered Loudspeakers SWITCHED OFF!!!
Source output level set to provide a 0dB output signal to the Mixer. Mixer Channel Gain adjusted to provide a 0dB signal reading on the Mixers Output Meter with the Channel and Master Output Fader/s set to the 0dB or Unity Gain Position. RETURN THE MIXERS MASTER FADER TO MINIMUM. Switch on the Power amplifier/s or Powered Loudspeakers. If you are using an Amp and Passive Loudspeaker rig then set the Amplifiers Level controls to 0dB or Unity Gain. If you are using Powered Speakers set the level controls on the Control Panel of the Loudspeakers to 0dB or Unity Gain. Once set, use the Mixers Master Fader to adjust your Volume level.
Daz
1 If your mixer has Unbalanced outputs (As with the Behringer model mentioned). The use of long cable runs to Active/Powered Loudspeakers is best avoided. If you want to use a Mixer (Or Controller for that matter) without Balanced Outputs, use an Unbalanced to Balanced line convertor. This will greatly reduce the chances of Earth/Ground loops forming within your system and provide better noise rejection performance. A good quality UB to B convertor can cost almost as much as an inexpensive Mixer so the best solution is to avoid the problem and go for a Mixer which already provides Balanced Main Outputs.
2 As mentioned, avoid using the XLR inputs on Mixers like the Behringer model mentioned for anything other than Microphones. They are not designed to take the high level signals from a Line Source as the Gain control provided does not have the range of adjustment required to correctly match a Line Level signal. High distortion and levels of noise could well be the result. However there is nothing wrong with using the TRS balanced Jack inputs on these channels as these are configured with lower Gain to allow for Line Level signals.
3 Any additional equipment daisy chained into the signal path will add noise and distortion. However the pre amps in even modest priced equipment should not add objectionable levels of noise if configured correctly. Less expensive equipment “will” tend to have poorer noise performance. But the gap between less expensive and top notch equipment performance has narrowed a great deal. Of far greater concern is the noise/hiss added through poor setup and Gain Structure. Eg
Poor Gain Structure
Source output level set low, Mixer Input Channel Gain High (To obtain a usable signal), Mixer Channel fader low ( Below 0dB or Unity Gain setting). Mixer Master Fader High (Above 0dB or Unity Gain setting) Amplifier or Powered Loudspeaker level controls set above 0dB or Unity Gain setting.
The above settings will not make the best use of the mixers noise performance.
Good Gain Structure
Start with the Amplifier or Powered Loudspeakers SWITCHED OFF!!!
Source output level set to provide a 0dB output signal to the Mixer. Mixer Channel Gain adjusted to provide a 0dB signal reading on the Mixers Output Meter with the Channel and Master Output Fader/s set to the 0dB or Unity Gain Position. RETURN THE MIXERS MASTER FADER TO MINIMUM. Switch on the Power amplifier/s or Powered Loudspeakers. If you are using an Amp and Passive Loudspeaker rig then set the Amplifiers Level controls to 0dB or Unity Gain. If you are using Powered Speakers set the level controls on the Control Panel of the Loudspeakers to 0dB or Unity Gain. Once set, use the Mixers Master Fader to adjust your Volume level.
Daz
Posté Sat 15 Feb 14 @ 10:16 am
djmike001
groovindj wrote :
It's not a good idea to do that. The XLR inputs on the Xenyx are mic level. Feeding them with the balanced master outs of the Denon will most likely overload them.
djmike001 wrote :
1/4 to xlr and use two channels for it.
It's not a good idea to do that. The XLR inputs on the Xenyx are mic level. Feeding them with the balanced master outs of the Denon will most likely overload them.
Oh, well I am not super familuar with the xenyx boards, other than my obvious previous posts on them.
douhh Yeah, There wouldn't be a mic/line trim pad on those. He would have to use a DI box if he was going to go directly into xlr,
Does that board allow for 1/4 line inputs?
**Never mind Daz answered my questions.
Posté Sun 16 Feb 14 @ 1:11 am
jmavila02
UPDATE
So by reading the mixers manual I discovered the main outs were unbalanced. I went to GC today to pick up a Mackie 802 VLZ4 mixer instead since that one did have balanced Outputs.
The guy at GC confirmed with me that 2 cables (TRS to XLR) was the way to go from my Right and Left 1/4 Balanced outputs of my Denon MC3000. Someone posted here that that was a bad idea though so I might look for an RCA to go out of my controller into ONE channel of the mixer. Is that a good idea?
****My Dennon has 1/4 and RCA outputs.
So by reading the mixers manual I discovered the main outs were unbalanced. I went to GC today to pick up a Mackie 802 VLZ4 mixer instead since that one did have balanced Outputs.
The guy at GC confirmed with me that 2 cables (TRS to XLR) was the way to go from my Right and Left 1/4 Balanced outputs of my Denon MC3000. Someone posted here that that was a bad idea though so I might look for an RCA to go out of my controller into ONE channel of the mixer. Is that a good idea?
****My Dennon has 1/4 and RCA outputs.
Posté Sun 16 Feb 14 @ 2:33 am
djmike001
unless your new board has a trim pad for converting the XLR to instrument line input (usually the 1/4) like DAZ and others have said. If the XLR is Mic input only. You will have issues. I apologize for my error on this earlier.
You should treat your Denon and frankly any controller/mixer as if it is an instrument.
Since it is not a mic even with a gain control of -16db or even -20db which is intended if the xlr's on the board are MIC inputs, just that MICs.
The people at guitar center are not always the brightest people. They are trying to make a sale. So do your research before listening to one of those guys.
Sometimes you will come across someone who works there that knows exactly what they are talking about when it comes to sound. But the bottom line is that GC doesn't pay their employees that well. Not always the case but if they actually know what they are talking about and are well educated on the matter, they probably won't be working there, they would be working somewhere else making better money.
I can't tell you how many times I have gone their with specific questions, already knowing the right answer. Just for them to blow smoke up my... for the cause of just to make a sale. You should experiment with these when you go there. You will quickly figure out who knows what they are talking about, by those who are willing to nod their head and tell you what you want to hear. If they say they dont' know and they will look into it or say we can discover what it can and can't do together. That is someone I actually have some respect for. just my two cents.
Explaining the differences between balanced and unbalanced signals, and balanced and unbalanced cables is rather complex to answer.
The short answer however is that unbalanced cables and signals are more susceptible to undesired noise interference. Where Balanced is slightly more complex but for the sake of simplicity they are are less susceptible to noise interference with out going into the complexities of explaining phase and amplitudes
DAZ can probably explain the differences better than I can if you are wanting a deeper understanding of the two. Everything he wrote was written with a technical elegance beyond my grasp of the english technical writing skills.
You should treat your Denon and frankly any controller/mixer as if it is an instrument.
Since it is not a mic even with a gain control of -16db or even -20db which is intended if the xlr's on the board are MIC inputs, just that MICs.
The people at guitar center are not always the brightest people. They are trying to make a sale. So do your research before listening to one of those guys.
Sometimes you will come across someone who works there that knows exactly what they are talking about when it comes to sound. But the bottom line is that GC doesn't pay their employees that well. Not always the case but if they actually know what they are talking about and are well educated on the matter, they probably won't be working there, they would be working somewhere else making better money.
I can't tell you how many times I have gone their with specific questions, already knowing the right answer. Just for them to blow smoke up my... for the cause of just to make a sale. You should experiment with these when you go there. You will quickly figure out who knows what they are talking about, by those who are willing to nod their head and tell you what you want to hear. If they say they dont' know and they will look into it or say we can discover what it can and can't do together. That is someone I actually have some respect for. just my two cents.
Explaining the differences between balanced and unbalanced signals, and balanced and unbalanced cables is rather complex to answer.
The short answer however is that unbalanced cables and signals are more susceptible to undesired noise interference. Where Balanced is slightly more complex but for the sake of simplicity they are are less susceptible to noise interference with out going into the complexities of explaining phase and amplitudes
DAZ can probably explain the differences better than I can if you are wanting a deeper understanding of the two. Everything he wrote was written with a technical elegance beyond my grasp of the english technical writing skills.
Posté Sun 16 Feb 14 @ 3:15 am
Dazmax
Jmavila
The Mackie Mixer you now have is fine for what you want to do. I would suggest that you forget using the XLR connection. As this mixer has two dedicated Stereo input channels (5/6 and 7/8). The simplest solution would be to use a pair of TRS to TRS Jack cables (One Left and one Right) between your Denon and one of the Stereo inputs on the Mixer. This will keep the Mic Channels free for expansion/later use. Using RCA/Phono to TS Jacks will also work. However, as your Denon has the facility to provide Balanced TRS Outputs, why not use them. Jacks tend to provide improved relyability over RCA connectors.
Couple of points tho
1. This Mixer has a Phantom Power facility (Switched ON and Off with the Push Button above the Headphone Socket).Do not switch this ON unless you have looked into and fully understand what it does. In brief it provides a 48Volt DC supply to power the likes of Condenser Microphones. This Power Supply is provided on the input lines of the Mixer. While most equipment connected to the inputs will not be affected by this, some can be damaged so watch out. Never switch the Phantom Power On if any equipment is connected with Single ended/Unbalanced (TS Jacks) to any of the Mixers inputs!!!!!!!
2. Also provided on this unit, and an unusual feature, is the Mic/+4dB switch to the left and below the XLR Output Sockets. Just make sure that this is always selected to +4dB. The Mic setting is intended for use when the Mixer is connected as a Direct Inject on a larger sound system (Where it would be feeding to the inputs of a large format Mixing Console via a Stage Snake/Multicore) and as such will provide a greatly reduced output level.
Daz
The Mackie Mixer you now have is fine for what you want to do. I would suggest that you forget using the XLR connection. As this mixer has two dedicated Stereo input channels (5/6 and 7/8). The simplest solution would be to use a pair of TRS to TRS Jack cables (One Left and one Right) between your Denon and one of the Stereo inputs on the Mixer. This will keep the Mic Channels free for expansion/later use. Using RCA/Phono to TS Jacks will also work. However, as your Denon has the facility to provide Balanced TRS Outputs, why not use them. Jacks tend to provide improved relyability over RCA connectors.
Couple of points tho
1. This Mixer has a Phantom Power facility (Switched ON and Off with the Push Button above the Headphone Socket).Do not switch this ON unless you have looked into and fully understand what it does. In brief it provides a 48Volt DC supply to power the likes of Condenser Microphones. This Power Supply is provided on the input lines of the Mixer. While most equipment connected to the inputs will not be affected by this, some can be damaged so watch out. Never switch the Phantom Power On if any equipment is connected with Single ended/Unbalanced (TS Jacks) to any of the Mixers inputs!!!!!!!
2. Also provided on this unit, and an unusual feature, is the Mic/+4dB switch to the left and below the XLR Output Sockets. Just make sure that this is always selected to +4dB. The Mic setting is intended for use when the Mixer is connected as a Direct Inject on a larger sound system (Where it would be feeding to the inputs of a large format Mixing Console via a Stage Snake/Multicore) and as such will provide a greatly reduced output level.
Daz
Posté Sun 16 Feb 14 @ 5:10 am
Tear Em 'Up
djmike001 wrote :
DAZ can probably explain the differences better than I can if you are wanting a deeper understanding of the two. Everything he wrote was written with a technical elegance beyond my grasp of the english technical writing skills.
Daz is one of the most informed sound people I know. If I have a question, Daz is who I ask. There is a reason he is a VIP here, it is because of his knowledge and, his willingness to help others.
Posté Sun 16 Feb 14 @ 12:18 pm
jmavila02
Thank you guys for all the useful information.
So I had my first gig yesterday with the mixer and I gotta say it sounded pretty good. I will still look for those cables (TRS-TRS)
Yeah the guy at GC was just not really even paying attention to the controller. I'm gonna try to get a job there and give them some good knowledge : ).
One more thing out of topic: I started the night with the ELZ running in "club" setting and I was wondering why my 118Live X sub lacked the "boom." I then realized that the "club" setting is not ideal when you are running a sub since it "steals" the low frequenzies from the subwoofer. I changed the setting to "Live" and even tried "Speech" and WHAT A DIFFERENCE! My system sounded AWSOME!
Before my ELZ 15" tops I was working with Behringers and for some reason my sub did not give me the "boom" I wanted. I'm a happy camper now. : )
So I had my first gig yesterday with the mixer and I gotta say it sounded pretty good. I will still look for those cables (TRS-TRS)
Yeah the guy at GC was just not really even paying attention to the controller. I'm gonna try to get a job there and give them some good knowledge : ).
One more thing out of topic: I started the night with the ELZ running in "club" setting and I was wondering why my 118Live X sub lacked the "boom." I then realized that the "club" setting is not ideal when you are running a sub since it "steals" the low frequenzies from the subwoofer. I changed the setting to "Live" and even tried "Speech" and WHAT A DIFFERENCE! My system sounded AWSOME!
Before my ELZ 15" tops I was working with Behringers and for some reason my sub did not give me the "boom" I wanted. I'm a happy camper now. : )
Posté Mon 17 Feb 14 @ 11:53 am
richie6262
"Here we go again with Terry attacking something I've said. Down boy!"
Too True! : )
Posté Tue 25 Feb 14 @ 10:23 am