Scoox
@grovindj I was talking about Traktor Pro, not its toy-like little brother Traktor DJ. That looks like a very stupid layout.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 10:42 am
groovindj
It's all Traktor. It's all from Native Instruments.
Clearly they also do not always use asymmetrical layouts. It's mixed, just like VDJ (and others).
Clearly they also do not always use asymmetrical layouts. It's mixed, just like VDJ (and others).
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 11:02 am
Scoox
Just to add weight to my argument:
● A symmetrical layout with only a small handful of controls may not be challenging to learn, but imagine a layout consisting of hundreds of controls arranged symmetrically—it'd be a nightmare as we tend to locate buttons and knobs relative to other more prominent controls e.g. the jogwheels.
● An asymmetrical layout is easier and cheaper to design since elements desiged for one side can be re-used on the other directly and without modification. When it comes to hardware controllers, the asymmetrical layout translates to lower manufacturing costs. Pioneer don't sell left-handed CDJs because it's cheaper that way.
● An asymmetrical GUI layout makes it easier to locate controls visually since all modules look the same. Same applies to hardware controllers and players.
● An asymmetrical layout is easier to document when using images.
● Both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive vehicles use the same pedal arrangement. If the pedal order was reversed depending on the side of the driver, UK drivers would have a very hard time driving in left-hand-drive countries.
● A symmetrical layout with only a small handful of controls may not be challenging to learn, but imagine a layout consisting of hundreds of controls arranged symmetrically—it'd be a nightmare as we tend to locate buttons and knobs relative to other more prominent controls e.g. the jogwheels.
● An asymmetrical layout is easier and cheaper to design since elements desiged for one side can be re-used on the other directly and without modification. When it comes to hardware controllers, the asymmetrical layout translates to lower manufacturing costs. Pioneer don't sell left-handed CDJs because it's cheaper that way.
● An asymmetrical GUI layout makes it easier to locate controls visually since all modules look the same. Same applies to hardware controllers and players.
● An asymmetrical layout is easier to document when using images.
● Both left-hand-drive and right-hand-drive vehicles use the same pedal arrangement. If the pedal order was reversed depending on the side of the driver, UK drivers would have a very hard time driving in left-hand-drive countries.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 11:23 am
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Most people want a mix of both.. ;-) makes most sense
Typically pitch faders either being inside or outside.
As for Traktor., its a mess. Sometimes this sometimes that..
But in the end it doesnt really matter, least important thing in the world ;-)
and while some like pepsi, some like cola, most all are fine with either.. cosmetic and "non-issue" for most all djs. Can do either way
And, might come choice for both in VDJ skin, so no worries ;-) (and already are plenty of skins with this or that)
Typically pitch faders either being inside or outside.
As for Traktor., its a mess. Sometimes this sometimes that..
But in the end it doesnt really matter, least important thing in the world ;-)
and while some like pepsi, some like cola, most all are fine with either.. cosmetic and "non-issue" for most all djs. Can do either way
And, might come choice for both in VDJ skin, so no worries ;-) (and already are plenty of skins with this or that)
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 11:24 am
groovindj
The layout of software or hardware doesn't bother me in the slightest. I can use either, and don't even notice the difference. My brain just figures it out!
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 11:34 am
Scoox
@Rune You just cherry-picked an older Traktor S4 controller. The latest S4 mk3, which you can see at the link below, is 100% symmetrical and it looks rather gorgeous.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0017/2972/products/s4mk3_top_1800x1800.jpg
Sorry I can't quote or post hyperlinks as I don't have a VDJ license, therefore I'm limited to plain text.
Anyway, I get the impression criticism is not welcome on this forum. I've given several totally valid reasons why the symmetrical layout is superior and, when I ask someone to sell me on the symmetrical layout, the strongest arguments so far are that (1) it's OK because they don't mind and (2) some old or cheapo DJ controllers use the symmetrical layout. Duh. Never mind the fact that leading DJ gear manufacturers have adopted the asymmetrical layout in all their latest pro gear.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0017/2972/products/s4mk3_top_1800x1800.jpg
Sorry I can't quote or post hyperlinks as I don't have a VDJ license, therefore I'm limited to plain text.
Anyway, I get the impression criticism is not welcome on this forum. I've given several totally valid reasons why the symmetrical layout is superior and, when I ask someone to sell me on the symmetrical layout, the strongest arguments so far are that (1) it's OK because they don't mind and (2) some old or cheapo DJ controllers use the symmetrical layout. Duh. Never mind the fact that leading DJ gear manufacturers have adopted the asymmetrical layout in all their latest pro gear.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 3:12 pm
groovindj
Scoox wrote :
You just cherry-picked
What, and you're not? One layout vs the other is just personal preference - nothing more.
You've already made your point, Atomix staff have taken note and given you feedback.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 3:24 pm
Scoox
If there are no reasons why symmetrical is better (nobody has yet given any), and there are some reasons why asymmetrical is better, it sounds like asymmetrical might actually be better.
I agree it's odd Rekordbox uses a partly symmetrical layout for some elements of it's GUI when all Pioneer hardware is asymmetrical.
I agree it's odd Rekordbox uses a partly symmetrical layout for some elements of it's GUI when all Pioneer hardware is asymmetrical.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 3:30 pm
Adion
For me mirrored makes sense because the elements flow outwards of the mixer.
So in the VDJ skin pitch slider is at the same distance from the mixer, and effects are further out.
It also makes it easier to compare information. Pitch, bpm, key time remain etc... are all closer together than when they would be on the other side.
For physical gear, having the pitch slider on the outsides is just more practical to control imo without touching other controls.
So in the VDJ skin pitch slider is at the same distance from the mixer, and effects are further out.
It also makes it easier to compare information. Pitch, bpm, key time remain etc... are all closer together than when they would be on the other side.
For physical gear, having the pitch slider on the outsides is just more practical to control imo without touching other controls.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 3:38 pm
groovindj
Scoox wrote :
no reasons why symmetrical is better
As several people here have already explained, one view is not "better" than the other. It's just different.
Are apples better than oranges? Is wine better than beer? Are sausages better than chips? Is wood better than a banana?
If you think (in your personal opinion) that X is better than Y, fair enough - but that doesn't make it a fact. It's just your preference.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 3:49 pm
Scoox
@Adion Thanks for countering the point with some interesting points. I thought about the pitch fader, on hardware there's definitely a risk of hitting other controls. Unfortunately if the pitch fader is tricky business because to put it on the other side it would have to be inverted (up = higher pitch) because the idea is that you move the pitch fader in the direction of rotation of the record to speed it up, and the opposite direction to slow it down. Since the record turns in the same direction on both sides (hmmm... asymmetrical layout again?) it could be pretty confusing.
The symmetrical layout presumes that users operate the left side of the interface with the left hand, and the right side with the right hand. This is clearly not the case. Even on gear that's laid out symmetrically, a right-handed user is always going to use the right hand for any move requiring dexterity or speed, regardless of where the button/fader/knob is, so from an ergonomics perspective symmetry does not carry any value other than aesthetics IMO.
Using the exact layout on both sides of the GUI means your brain only needs to familiarise itself with one layout rather than two—half the work. We might as well mirror text captions, and the direction of knobs, but it would require a great deal more work to master, and even after using such an unnecessarily convoluted layout for a long time the user would still need to make a constant conscious effort not to inadvertently move something the wrong way round.
A poll would be an effective way to find out what people really think. If the poll options were:
Which layout do you prefer?
(1) asymmetrical
(2) symmetrical
(3) don't know
(4) don't mind either
You'd probably find most people would pick (3) or (4), a few would pick (1) and fanbois and developers would pick (2). Since VDJ is skinnable it would be great if the default skin was optionally available in an asymmetrical layout.
The symmetrical layout presumes that users operate the left side of the interface with the left hand, and the right side with the right hand. This is clearly not the case. Even on gear that's laid out symmetrically, a right-handed user is always going to use the right hand for any move requiring dexterity or speed, regardless of where the button/fader/knob is, so from an ergonomics perspective symmetry does not carry any value other than aesthetics IMO.
Using the exact layout on both sides of the GUI means your brain only needs to familiarise itself with one layout rather than two—half the work. We might as well mirror text captions, and the direction of knobs, but it would require a great deal more work to master, and even after using such an unnecessarily convoluted layout for a long time the user would still need to make a constant conscious effort not to inadvertently move something the wrong way round.
A poll would be an effective way to find out what people really think. If the poll options were:
Which layout do you prefer?
(1) asymmetrical
(2) symmetrical
(3) don't know
(4) don't mind either
You'd probably find most people would pick (3) or (4), a few would pick (1) and fanbois and developers would pick (2). Since VDJ is skinnable it would be great if the default skin was optionally available in an asymmetrical layout.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 4:48 pm
Rune (DJ-In-Norway)
Dont you already see you are the only one advocating this ;-)
In this thread
Anyways, you have expressed that you dont understand why Rekordbox have this, and VirtualDJ also having this we are doing it wrong.
And Serato also having it is a mistake etc etc
Few agrees with you, and does even matter if anyone do. Clearly all the DJ software have this layout for good reasons ;-) And they made their choice for this.
Some like cola some like pepsi, and thats totally fine. . And most of all, most DJs are fine with both pepsi and cola, so you see a bit of both on dj gear, etc
But on top of that, unlike other dj software, you can edit the skin yourself to your own liking.
Putting decks like you want, is an easy edit, just edit yours then, and you are done ;-) simple as that
In this thread
Anyways, you have expressed that you dont understand why Rekordbox have this, and VirtualDJ also having this we are doing it wrong.
And Serato also having it is a mistake etc etc
Few agrees with you, and does even matter if anyone do. Clearly all the DJ software have this layout for good reasons ;-) And they made their choice for this.
Some like cola some like pepsi, and thats totally fine. . And most of all, most DJs are fine with both pepsi and cola, so you see a bit of both on dj gear, etc
But on top of that, unlike other dj software, you can edit the skin yourself to your own liking.
Putting decks like you want, is an easy edit, just edit yours then, and you are done ;-) simple as that
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 4:56 pm
locoDog
If there's something you don't like in the skin,
http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/Modify%20a%20Skin.html
move stuff, add stuff, remove stuff as you please. Don't like default? Do it yourself.
http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/Modify%20a%20Skin.html
move stuff, add stuff, remove stuff as you please. Don't like default? Do it yourself.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 5:55 pm
Grok32
I agree with Scoox. The skin should match the hardware. The hardware should be consistent so that you can change equipment without confusion. Individual components are the building blocks. Ideally controllers would match the individual components. But, there is a large variety of controllers, to each his own.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 6:06 pm
LIMOL
It takes a minute to notice something, an hour to appreciate it, a day to love it, but a lifetime to forget it.
Posté Fri 21 Aug 20 @ 6:22 pm